Monday, May 07, 2007

Never Again II

Captain's Quarters is discussing a News Week poll showing Bush's approval numbers to be at record lows.

The usual defeat at any price folks of course have come out to support abandoning the Iraqi democrats to the head choppers.

One of them was trumpeting this poll and others to say that there is a lot of support for the "get out now" position. I disagreed.

re: the shift in the electorate to the "get out now" position.

Being unhappy with the progress in the war is not the same as supporting an evolution in Iraq similar to the evolution in South East Asia following April 1975.

Some of us saw that event and what followed. We have not forgotten and will do everthing in our power to prevent a repeat.

Which is why I Support Democracy In Iraq


flanok said...

Bush made a right cock up with the British queen to day, can't even get that right.
Her grandson, Prince Harry is about to go and fight his war, if he was to be killed or hurt like the thousands of other sons and daughters, would it be differnt?
Bushs time is limited, should do what Blair is doing and get out.


Tony Robbins

mw said...

"The usual defeat at any price folks ... One of them was trumpeting this poll and others to say that there is a lot of support for the "get out now" - MS

I guess that would be me. Except that I never used the phrase "get out now", and actually agreed with the Captain on his assessment of the poll. I did use the phrase "orderly withdrawal" and would add the qualifier "as conditions on the ground permit". Which is also a more accurate characterization of the War Funding Bill vetoed by Bush.

I did respond to your comment on CQ, but apparently it has not (as yet) cleared moderation, so I'll just post it here:


I've also done some thinking and blogging about the comparison between Vietnam and Iraq. Usually the comparison is not welcomed in comments on right-of-center blogs, but since you brought it up, permit me to share a few thoughts. I was also around for "the event" in April, 1975 and as well as "the events" in 1967-68, and came to the same conclusion as you: "NEVER AGAIN". The difference, is the mistake that I do not want to see repeated are the mistakes made 4-5 years into the Vietnam escalation in 1968, that set the stage and was the root cause for the 1975 denoument. I posted about it here and here:

"In 1995, Robert McNamara (widely referred to as "the architect of the Vietnam War") writing in his memoir "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam", revealed that as early as 1967 (with 25,000 American dead) he no longer believed that America could win the war in Vietnam, and as a direct consequence of expressing that view, resigned (or was fired) from the LBJ administration. This McNamara quote is excerpted from Harold P. Ford's analysis "Thoughts Engendered by Robert McNamara's In Retrospect":

"We were wrong, terribly wrong... Enemy morale has not broken . . . . It appears that [the enemy] can more than replace his losses by infiltration from North Vietnam and recruitment in South Vietnam. . . . Pacification has if anything gone backward. As compared with two, or four, years ago, enemy full-time regional forces and part-time guerrilla forces are larger; attacks, terrorism and sabotage have increased in scope and intensity. . . . In essence, we find ourselves--from the point of view of the important war (for the [hearts and minds] of the people)--no better, and if anything worse off. This important war must be fought and won by the Vietnamese themselves. We have known this from the beginning . . ." Robert McNamara -"In Retrospect" (pp. 262-263).

Neither McNamara nor LBJ chose to share that insight with the American public. Ultimately it took 50,000 American lives for a majority of Americans to learn that their government could not be trusted on the reasons for, nor the "light at the end of the tunnel" progress in, Vietnam. It is reasonable to posit, that if McNamara had recognized in 1968 that his loyalty was owed first to the American people, and second to the LBJ administration, had communicated what he knew then to the American people, we might have seen a better end, a quicker end, and fewer deaths and casualties in Vietnam".

Anyway, I think I've probably worn out my welcome in this thread (here and there). I'll just leave you (or anyone else) the last word.

M. Simon said...

I get it.

You have no interest in what happens in Iraq once we leave.

Which is exactly what i said your position was.

BTW the Captain is changing his system for comments so it may have nothing to do with what you have written. Your comments are much too mild and sane for the Captain to take any action.


Let me note that I am willing to outlast the enemies of the Iraqi democrats. How ever long that takes.

You see I'm a JFK Democrat:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. - John F. Kennedy

M. Simon said...


As I understand it the Prince was not drafted.

I think with concerted effort and help from the Democrats in Congress it ought to be possible to get Bush out of the White House in less than 21 months.

However, it will take some doing. The Democrats need to put a lot more effort into getting Bush out.

Let me say I applaud the effort.