Too Much Liberty
Thomas Jefferson: "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
Camille Paglia: "Leaving sex to the feminists is like letting your dog vacation at the taxidermist."
Camille Paglia: "The only thing that will be remembered about my enemies after they're dead is the nasty things I've said about them”.
Camille Paglia: "It is capitalist America that produced the modern independent woman. Never in history have women had more freedom of choice in regard to dress, behaviour, career, and sexual orientation."
From Samizdata
Cross Posted at Classical Values and at The Astute Bloggers
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8 comments:
liberty without Natural Law is libertinage.
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0100.htm
jefferson was big on natural law.
and that some things/behaviors are unnatural and violate natural law.
Thomas Jefferson: "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
libertinage is not always only an inconvenience.
and it's not always private.
by saying it is merely an inconvenience you and TJ are begging the question. a logical fallacy.
TJ believed deeply in Natural Law; it underpins the DOI.
NL refers to our rights - life liberty and the prusuit of happiness.
some libs claim this measn a mother should have the liberty to kill the baby in her womb.
just as the man's right/liberty to swing his arm ends where the next man's nose begins, so to does the right/liberty of the mother end where the life of her child begins.
and that is at conception.
the fetus/embryo/baby is a unique human being and not part of the mother's body.
Natural Law both defines and limits our liberties.
without limits there is amorality, immorality and libertinage.
want to see an evil world?
it's a world in which everyone does what's right in THEIR OWN EYES.
there is natural law. there are universal rights.
and therefore there must be limits.
When life begins is a religious question.
In the Jewish tradition it is at quickening which if I recall is at about 40 days. Abortions before that do not count as a sin in the Jewish tradition. Our trimester system is a fair approximation of that kind of thinking.
In any case now that we have the means I'd as soon prefer that those that didn't want children didn't have them. Over time this should actually strengthen the commitment to reproduction.
Your reference to natural law is correct. Your understanding of it is mistaken. Once you start including second order effects you are back to socialism. For instance. Overweight people tend to die younger. Is that fair to their children? Of course not. Something must be done. Socialism.
So let me repeat
Thomas Jefferson: "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
The right in fact appears to me to be just as socialist as the left. It is just that the things they want to socialize are different.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Of course if you want a conceived fetus to have rights I'm not going to be much of an impediment. The Constitution however is.
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The other thing to think about is what kind of enforcement regime would arise if we gave government control of reproduction.
It would be socialist to the core.
You may be right though. I may take a village to force every woman to carry every fetus to term.
Me? I'd prefer the evils of liberty to those of tyranny. Not a very popular position right or left.
If it wasn't for the war I'd still be a Libertarian.
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It is not up to the state to maintain the social order. Its only job should be to prevent violence to other humans (you are not a human under the law - under most circumstances - until you can make it on your own for at least a few hours i.e. outside the womb.
Franklin was right "A Republic ... if you can keep it" i.e. the state cannot do what you think it can - maintain a culture. it can only prevent or deter violence and fraud.
What ever enforcement regime re: reproductive freedom you can imagine would lead ultimately to a most intrusive government. i.e weekly tests for women to prevent them from doing something bad. You want some government agent messing with your daughter's or mates privates every week to prevent abortion? If the drug war is any indication the laws would get more and more draconian as each ratchet up failed to produce the desired results.
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Republicans used to respect human nature. Abortion has been with us for at least 2,500 years. That is how some humans naturally behave. Interfere with that at your peril.
Some humans like alcohol. Interfere with that at your peril.
Some humans like hemp. Interfere with that at your peril.
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If we outlaw abortion expect a brisk trade in RU-485.
Then what will you do?
Better to have it in the open where changing minds is possible.
"When life begins is a religious question."
FALSE: LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION; A NEW HUMAN WITH UNIQUE DNA IS MADE.
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So let me repeat
Thomas Jefferson: "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
WRONG: THIS IS A LOGICAL FALLACY; YOUR USE OF INCONVENIENCE BEGS THE QUESTION.
LIBERTY MUST BE LIMITED, OR WE LIVE IN AN ANARCHY RULED BY THOSE WITH THE BIGGEST FISTS.
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Of course if you want a conceived fetus to have rights I'm not going to be much of an impediment. The Constitution however is.
WRONG: THERE IS NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION ABOUT ABORTION. THE DECLARATION DOES DEFEND LIFE.
WE FORCE PEOPLE TO PAY TAXES, GET DRIVER'S LICENSES ETC. WHY NOT EXPECT A MOTHER NOT TO KILL HER BABY WHILE IT'S IN HER WOMB!?
WHY NOT FIND MEDICAL/SCIENTIFIC MEANS TO EXTRACT THE EMBRYO AND RE-IMPLANT IT INTO THE WOMB OF A WOMAN WHO WANTS TO BE A MOTHER AND HAVE A BABY?
THAT'S A WIN-WIN-WIN: THE MOTHER WHO DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO TERM GETS TO HALT HER PREGNANCY; THE BABY LIVES; ANOTHER WOMAN WHO PERHAPS COULDN'T CONCEIVE GETS TO BE PREGNANT!
IF WE CAN INVENT ABORTION PILLS AND
AND FREEZE IV EMBRYOS THEN WE CAN DO THIS!
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"Me? I'd prefer the evils of liberty to those of tyranny."
TYRANNY IS TYRANNY. I LIVED IN NYC DURING THE BAD YEARS WHEN CRIME MADE US UN-FREE. GIULIANI'S "FASCIST TACTICS" SO-CALLED BY LEFTIES WORKED. WE ARE ALL MORE FREE AS A RESULT.
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If only it were so.
Reliapundit said:
...I LIVED IN NYC DURING THE BAD YEARS WHEN CRIME MADE US UN-FREE.
A first quick reading suggested we'd somehow rid NYC of the UN, if even for a short time. My heart leapt with joy. But, a nagging doubt set in. The context didn't fit. I reread it. Sloppy grammar, dammit.
Lose the caps rp, and mind your punctuation. Unfree is easier to understand. I think. No offense intended.
I wonder if it's fair to describe Giuliani's tenure as mayor using leftist epithets. I wasn't there, so may not be qualified to defend him, but somehow your argument seems to be sort of comparing apples with pomegranits.
Do what thou will. OTO
***pomegranates***
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